[nihilus]

There is a lot of talk on how the Titan XD may take some 3/4 ton buyers, but I just wanted to see how the Titan XD stacked up against the F-150 HD which is the only heavy half on the market I believe.

The last gen F-150 had an 8200 GVWR and was available in 157" and 163" wheelbases. Depending on configuration, it had 2400 lbs. of real-world payload or more. The 2015 F-150 has a lower 7850 GVWR or 7600 GVWR (depending on wheel choice oddly), and should have even more real-world payload with the massive weight savings. This model will be released later in the year so buyers will have a chance to make a choice.

Payload- Nissan claims over 2000 lbs, which sounds good but actually is not very impressive. I would assume it has less than 3000 lbs otherwise they would have said "over 3000 lbs". If it is 2000 lbs, that means that real-world numbers of a nicely equipped trucks would be closer to 1700 lbs. There are non-HD supercab F-150s that have over 2000 lbs payload on the yellow sticker in XLT trim. If it is just below 3000 lbs, that means that yellow sticker payloads would be closer to 2700 lbs.
Advantage : probably Ford

Power: I know everyone wants to scream the XD, but not quite that simple. The F-150 HD is available with 2 motors -the 5.0 and the 3.5tt. The 5.0 cummins should be able to beat the 5.0 Ford in every category except perhaps 0-60 unloaded. The 3.5tt will be tougher. For comparison ,the 2.7tt destroys the 3.0L ED in every category - i suggest checking out pickuptrucks.com V-6 round up. The 5.0 cummins should be much closer to the 3.5tt though. The 3.5tt continues to surprise people on how capable it is. They also expect a "gen 2" version as well as a 10-speed in the near future. Check out TFLtruck and the ike gauntlet to see how capable it is. It puts a 6.2L GM to shame at high altitudes and is about equal at sea level.
Advantage: tie depending on circumstance

Miles per $: I said mp$ and not mpg since diesel is usually a bit more. Against the 5.0 F-150, the Titan should be better unloaded as well as loaded. Against the 3.5tt the Titan should be SLIGHTLY better unloaded and WAY better loaded. the 3.5tt takes a large hit when loaded, more so than the V-8
Advantage: Titan

Durability: The aluminium has its benefits, but the Titan XD has massive chassis parts.
Advantage: Titan

Price: We will see!


I really like the size of the Titan XD. It is a full crew cab, but not a ridiculously long setup like the Ford 157" WB

 

[NavyCuda]

My first thought, is that Nissan hasn't released their actual numbers yet, just "more than 2000lbs payload, more than 12,000lbs towing"

Until both the F150 and the Titan XD release their payload and towing capacities testing according to SAE J2807 it would be safer to assume that the XD is going to have superior real world capabilities when compared to the F150.

Old Fords were well known for being able to be run well into the excess of the published numbers. Looking at what is available thus far of the Titan XD it would be better to compare it to a F250/F350 from the early to mid 90's.

The 3.5L ecoboost has the ISV beat by 15hp, but the ISV beats the ecoboost by 185ft.lbs of torque. Be interesting to see the results. I'm betting the Titan XD is going to be programmer friendly up to about 425hp before major changes need to start happening. If it's really the big transmission rated to 850ft.lbs, they were thinking ahead. Ford complained that the compound turbo 6.4Ls could be turned up way too far and that's why they went to the single turbine dual compressor setup on the first 6.7L, to reduce how far the engine could be pushed stock.

The main reason for this, is the way compound turbos work. Think of turbos like multipliers. If you have one turbo and run a pressure ratio of 3:1 (roughly 29psig) but it was originally designed for a pressure ratio of 2.25:1(roughly 18psig) that can be a pretty large step and take the turbo outside its efficiency island.

So with compound turbos, both running in their efficiency islands, at say 2.25:1 each, that would make roughly 40psig. Push each of the compound turbos to 2.5:1, a much smaller step for each turbo, keeping them closer to their optimal efficiency islands and you're looking at 54psig.

I find it very interesting that the ISV has sequential/compound turbos and a big transmission behind it.

 

[nihilus]

The 3.5L ecoboost has the ISV beat by 15hp, but the ISV beats the ecoboost by 185ft.lbs of torque. Be interesting to see the results. I'm betting the Titan XD is going to be programmer friendly up to about 425hp before major changes need to start happening. If it's really the big transmission rated to 850ft.lbs, they were thinking ahead. Ford complained that the compound turbo 6.4Ls could be turned up way too far and that's why they went to the single turbine dual compressor setup on the first 6.7L, to reduce how far the engine could be pushed stock.

From what I read the Titan XD will be 310 hp and 555 ft/lb torque. The 3.5 tt is 365 hp and 420 ft/ lbs. That is a 55 hp advantage and 135 ft/lb disadvantage. As a reference, the 2.7tt has a 85 hp advantage and 55 ft/lb disadvantage in comparison to the 3.0 ED Ram. The 2.7tt performs better at every level even though the Ram is a 8 speed. this is why the 3.5tt and Cummins should be pretty close in all around capability. I do agree the big Allison gives the Titan an advantage, though not sure if it is the exact same setup as the Ram HD.

 

[NavyCuda]

From what I read the Titan XD will be 310 hp and 555 ft/lb torque. The 3.5 tt is 365 hp and 420 ft/ lbs. That is a 55 hp advantage and 135 ft/lb disadvantage. As a reference, the 2.7tt has a 85 hp advantage and 55 ft/lb disadvantage in comparison to the 3.0 ED Ram. The 2.7tt performs better at every level even though the Ram is a 8 speed. this is why the 3.5tt and Cummins should be pretty close in all around capability. I do agree the big Allison gives the Titan an advantage, though not sure if it is the exact same setup as the Ram HD.

Ah, I looked in a bad spot for specs on the 3.5 ecoboost then.

Its an aisan transmission to the best of my knowledge.

The 3.0L ecodiesel is a perfect engine for a true halfton pickup. The Titan is being setup to be a 2500 series labeled as a half ton. At least that's how it appears to me.

The ecoboost and the ecodiesel are going to pale in comparison to the ISV when it comes to pulling a load. Empty the ecodiesel will net better mileage, the ecoboost better performance. It is much more comfortable to listen to a diesel engine pulling a hill at 2500rpm, vs a gasoline engine at 4000+rpm. That's just me though.

 

[nihilus]

Aisan, not Allison- thanks for the correction. I don't think you are very familiar with the capabilities of the EB, though. It rarely runs at 4k rpms. The powerband is probably closer to that of a diesel than that of a V-8 gas. They are better at towing than most people expect. I implore you to watch the EB pulling a 10k trailer up an 8% grade at TFLtruck.com They also test the 2.7tt pulling a 7500 lb trailer up the hill with little effort at all. Rather amazing. The 5.0 cummins will probably pull better than the 3.5eb, but it will not "pale in comparison"

We all know diesel will get better mpg, but I am pushing to compare miles per $ since diesel has been higher in price.

 

[NavyCuda]

Aisan, not Allison- thanks for the correction. I don't think you are very familiar with the capabilities of the EB, though. It rarely runs at 4k rpms. The powerband is probably closer to that of a diesel than that of a V-8 gas. They are better at towing than most people expect. I implore you to watch the EB pulling a 10k trailer up an 8% grade at TFLtruck.com They also test the 2.7tt pulling a 7500 lb trailer up the hill with little effort at all. Rather amazing. The 5.0 cummins will probably pull better than the 3.5eb, but it will not "pale in comparison"

We all know diesel will get better mpg, but I am pushing to compare miles per $ since diesel has been higher in price.

I watched one of their earlier ecoboost videos and it is impressive, for a gas pot. I've stopped watching their videos though, I can't stand Roman.

I think if the F150 were to be offered with the ISV, I'd have a much harder choice choosing between the Titan and the F150.

The problem with turbocharged gasoline engines is two fold, higher fuel consumption under boost and higher exhaust gas temperatures.

Also, assuming the ISV has an exhaust brake that can represent a noticeable savings in brake component wear and a higher safety factory when towing a load.

 

[brulaz]

Agree the comparison is between the F150 with HD Payload and the Titan XD with the Cummins. There's really nothing else out there in the in-between category.

And we do need more info about MPG, Payloads, GAWR, GVWR and axle Curb Weights. And especially Price.

We do know a bit about the drive trains (engine, tranny, rear end) though. And the Titan XD is stronger there. Seems as tough as the current 3/4 ton drive trains, and would be my first choice for a high duty-cycle work truck in a smaller package.

Really looking forward to next Fall when we know more about these things.

 

[nihilus]

The entire drive train of the Titan XD is as impressive as it gets. Is there anything we can get from the fact that this is a 6-lug truck? Can you have over 8000 # GVWR with 6-lugs? The last-gen F-150 HD was 8200 # GVWR and that was 7-lugs. The new F-150 HD is 7850# GVWR and is only 6-lug.
With a full steel body, diesel engine, and large drivetrian, I would guess this truck to be 6500 lbs or more. That means we would need at least 8500 GVWR to have descent payload.

 

[brulaz]

There's a post here somewhere about 3 lugs. Seems there's a lot of heavy duty trucks out there with only 6 lugs, so that's not really any indicator.

Think Nissan has thrown around the 8500# somewhere. Unfortunately if above that, they will not have to publish the EPA mileage ratings for comparison ...

 

[NavyCuda]

There's a post here somewhere about 3 lugs. Seems there's a lot of heavy duty trucks out there with only 6 lugs, so that's not really any indicator.

Think Nissan has thrown around the 8500# somewhere. Unfortunately if above that, they will not have to publish the EPA mileage ratings for comparison ...

I can't remember 100% but I believe there have been a few comments to the effect of the Titan XD not needing to have mileage ratings.

 

[nihilus]

I know some heavier duty trucks are 6 lugs, but those are huge lugs. Just strange that Ford used 7-lug. Maybe they kept the lugs the same lug size as the other F150s (to save costs) and Nissan simply went bigger.

It really does need to be above 8500 GVWR for good payload. This truck may e heavier than any other half ton ever made.

 

[TitanMan]

I personally feel that the Titan XD will be in a class above the F-150 Heavy Duty. It will outperform the F-150 with towing strength and over-all engine performance. I think it will compete more with the F-250.

 

[nihilus]

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2015/01/2016-nissan-titan-xd-who-is-it-for.html

"Yet regardless of what Nissan wants to call the Titan XD, we were told some Titan XDs will have a gross vehicle weight rating weight more than 8,500 pounds, putting it in the eyes of the U.S. government into the heavy-duty category. Maybe this is more of a "heavy-duty light" than a "light-duty plus" truck. In fact, given current EPA ratings, Nissan would not have to publish fuel economy ratings for any vehicles with GVWRs of more than 8,500 pounds, which could include all or several versions of the Titan XD."

Ok then.

 

[bubba]

your neglecting to say that the ford engines need a lofty 5000 + rpm to reach there tq and hp peaks
the Titan will get 555 TQ @ 1600 rpm that is a huge benefit to acceleration
I would say the Titan will be much quicker then either ford engines in comparable trucks
Also the Titan cummins is not a run of the mill isv configuration Nissan worked with Cummins to develop 32 valve head design and made sure Cummins brought nhv into Nissan specs so much so the engine sounds like a big block v8 gas engine with no diesel chatter
at operating temperature .Though Ford claims 1200 lbs towing it is easy to tell which is the real hauler 555tq at 1600 rpm to Ford's 1/2 ton 5.0 383 TQ @ 5780 rpm

 

[brulaz]

your neglecting to say that the ford engines need a lofty 5000 + rpm to reach there tq and hp peaks
the Titan will get 555 TQ @ 1600 rpm that is a huge benefit to acceleration
...

You're forgetting that the Ecoboost 3.5L V6 (F150's towing motor) has a turbo just like the diesels, and they've tuned it so the 420 torque peak is at 2500rpm, with a wide band around that. Sort of a poor man's diesel.

I cruise on the flats at 1600 rpm pulling an 8000# travel trailer and 1000# of other gear.

(The smaller EcoBoost engines are tuned to higher rpm torque peaks, and the normally aspirated 5L and 6.2L V8s are as you say.)

Of course a 555 torque peak at 900 rpm lower would be even better. As would an exhaust brake (if implemented). Just not sure how much of a premium it's worth to me.

 

[nihilus]

@bubba, the Ford 2.7tt, 3.5tt, and 5.0 V-8 might ALL be faster 0-60 unloaded. Diesels are not exactly quick - Just look at how much torque an F-250 makes and it is not a rocket.

 

[NavyCuda]

I think Nissan and cummins are both sand bagging the numbers.

Look at the head design and how similar it is to another Nissan v8, the vh45de. Another interesting feature is the tuned length intake manifold runners.

My guess is that when the truck rags get to rag on the Titan it's going to set a new level of performance standard for diesel engines.

 

[TurboDiesel]

@bubba, the Ford 2.7tt, 3.5tt, and 5.0 V-8 might ALL be faster 0-60 unloaded. Diesels are not exactly quick - Just look at how much torque an F-250 makes and it is not a rocket.

Yup, it's more so for hauling, they are work horses.

 

[nihilus]

One place the Titan XD will struggle against the EB is on the hills. TFLtruck does a cool test on the Eisenhower pass with a trailer. It is all horsepower going up a hill and comparing the Ram ED to the Ford 2.7tt EB, the Ford beats it easily. Pulling a 10k # or more trailer up the mountains, I would suspect the 3.5tt to be able to keep up with traffic better than the Titan XD.

 

[brulaz]

One place the Titan XD will struggle against the EB is on the hills. TFLtruck does a cool test on the Eisenhower pass with a trailer. It is all horsepower going up a hill and comparing the Ram ED to the Ford 2.7tt EB, the Ford beats it easily. Pulling a 10k # or more trailer up the mountains, I would suspect the 3.5tt to be able to keep up with traffic better than the Titan XD.

The Cummins is ... what, 350 peak HP?
The 3.5L EcoB is 365 (maybe 380 with Premium?). Not a huge difference to me.

EDIT: My bad, I see the peak Cummins HP is more like 310hp, about 20% less. But like all diesels it has way more HP at lower rpms which is what I want for day-to-day, rather than extreme cases. Personally, for my 15,500# GCW, anything over 300 peak HP would be fine.

And the final gearing and torque management, so the engine runs in it's sweet spot, could maybe make a difference.

(And the Cummins should get better mileage at the same time. And if the Cummins has the Exhaust Brake implemented, going down it will be a *lot* easier.:grin2